Variable Reward Training.

[SARBoy]

After reading the thread on this method I thought I'd ask if anybody has used this method with this years birds and the out come?

Tom

[FalconGriff]

What thread? Can you put up the link please?

[SARBoy]

Happy to. Hope this works?

http://http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42676

[SARBoy]

No one out there?

[Kitana]

Sorry if it is not pertinent but I had to ask: why only this year's birds, what do they have that makes them different from last year or last decade birds? I don't understand the purpose of your thread, when there is already a very good one about the same subject?

[LadyHawke]

I use a variable reward system for my hawks fitness regimen, vertical jumping. I would not be able to cut his food into enough pieces to give him some every time he jumps to the glove. I have found it vary successfull. It does need to be variable, as if you reward every 3 jumps or 5 jumps with out fail, the bird will cotton on really quickly, and will effectively train you! Good luck.

[Jack]

I have always asked myself why even do this type of training? Variable rewards and all. If you can free loft your birds and have your perches high and low they will keep some amount of fitness over summer. They do not really require you do these jump ups and all. I have come to a conclusion that this type of game with them will only create more problems than it will solve.
Anything you do with food will create some kind of reaction in the hawks. Not only the reaction you are looking for, but in some cases reactions that you would not expect and definately would not welcome. An example of this is in the Cooper's hawk. You do jumps with her and eventually you create a basis for aggression toward the falconer. They can get anxious to feed, and they will then attempt to go to ground and back up in expectation of a tidbit. If you comply, you will make it even worse. If you do not comply, the hawk eventually needs to get your attention. That is where the un-pleasantness comes in. Harris hawks are not as apt to aggress like that, but a big RT is.

Jack

[Kitana]

I have always asked myself why even do this type of training? Variable rewards and all. If you can free loft your birds and have your perches high and low they will keep some amount of fitness over summer. They do not really require you do these jump ups and all. I have come to a conclusion that this type of game with them will only create more problems than it will solve.

Jack

Well, I have a 16 x 20 aviary where my hawk is free lofted. High perches, low perches, windows, bird feeders under the windows that attracts not only birds but hares and grouse. He flies a lot in there, and last season I thought that exercise, combined with lots of field time following on, would be enough fitness training.

Well, I was soooo wrong. I started doing jump ups and heavy creance training with him during springtime 2008, and I won 100gr of muscle compared to last year. I now have a very fit bird, a harris hawk that tailchases ruffed grouse through the woods relentlessly. Granted he never connect, but that still is amazing.

When following on, my bird (and I suspect most broadwings are the same) try to sit as most as possible and expand the least energy possible, trying just to glide from a tree to another instead of actively flying, etc. With jump ups and rope training he doesn't have a choice, he has to build those flight muscles if he wants to eat. Setting up a variable schedule of reinforcement, just as Ladyhawke wrote, is the only practical option when you want to do lots of jump ups. It motivates the bird to try harder and harder so much better than a fixed ratio of reinforcement it always amazes me. Matthew brilliantly explains the other advantages of a variable schedule of reinforcement in his thread. If it's not for you, and you haven't tried it and don't intend to, then why answer questions about this topic I wonder.

[CarlosR]

I am very interested in a continued discussion of this thread. I have been running into response problems with my gos. I found myself bribing my hawk with ever larger "rewards" to come back. He always came back eventually. I went through some very anxious times waiting for him to return and really not knowing what else to do. If he would not return for a piece of meat on the glove should I use a whole bird? Should I drag a poor quail around for him if he would not return to the lure? The worst part was not knowing what else to do, until I read the thread on variable rewards training. Next I read the articles by Karen Pryor and began her excellent book, "Don't Shoot the Dog." So now I have begun a training program I should have spent a lot of time on in the beginning, calling to the fist with the proper sequence of calling then reward. Instead of the one I used briefly, reward then calling. I had it totally backwards and in my rush to get my imprint out to the field I confused tameness with trained much to my chagrin. It is not an easy process to go back a few steps but it's a necessary one. I really can't handle more spoiled hawking trips because we must wait three hours for him to decide to return. So now I take walks in the forest I live in and put him on a perch and call him to me or rather tap my glove when he is watching me then as he comes I blow the whistle. Then he gets a reward hidden in the fist. Nothing new to many of you but to me it was like a gigantic light bulb went on. Yesterday I erred again and sent him up into a tree and called him in. No response. "
Uh-oh" went through my mind. Several hours later after watching him like a hawk and resisting the urge to fruitlessly call him, I left him and went home and made a cup of coffee. When I returned I called him and he came in like a jet. Again, upraised fist and tap, wave a signal cloth, hawk started coming, whistle, he landed on the fist, whistle again and reward. Did I do it right? Probably made some errors for sure in trying to move to far in the training timeline obviously but I got the right response eventually so I rewarded him. My next outing with him is about not giving him time to think about the beautiful scenery or how nice it would be to go high up in a tree but to set him down low and call him instantly to the fist even if it's only 10 feet or so. Then gradually increase the distance so perhaps even my hawk will respond instantly at distances up to a mile. Other than that he is a good hawk and is over his phobia of pheasants thanks to this forum! But it really sucks to have that nagging doubt in the back of my mind, what happens if he doesn't catch something?

[Jack]

Matthew brilliantly explains the other advantages of a variable schedule of reinforcement in his thread. If it's not for you, and you haven't tried it and don't intend to, then why answer questions about this topic I wonder.


I have been doing this for just at 50 years now, and believe me when I say that there is nothing being done now that I have not personally given a shot. Some of it I might have pioneered. A fit hawk is nice, but they can be fit quickly and simply by flying them regularly at game without playing all these little food games with them. If you will just back up and look at the entire forum you will see that there are a huge number of individuals that are having difficulties with their birds, and in most all cases it has to do with the way they are feeding them. I would much rather see my hawks become fit gradually as they fly and catch game, or miss it if you will, than to deal with some of the nasty habits that crop up from playing food games with them.
When a person asks for comments or opinions I assume that this is exactly what he wants. If he had made a profound statement I would not have anything to say about it. But that is my educated opinion on the subject, like it or not.

Jack

[SARBoy]

Sorry if it is not pertinent but I had to ask: why only this year's birds, what do they have that makes them different from last year or last decade birds? I don't understand the purpose of your thread, when there is already a very good one about the same subject?


Sorry for being vague. The porpose was to see how a bird trained with this method from the get go differs to how a more "traditionaly" trained bird responds. I thought that to get a fresh outlook I would ask about this years birds, but if someone has a more experanced bird trained to this method I would be intrested.

This is really to see if anybody has put this training into practice and seen a maked diffrance in responce, behavior, fitness, agression etc.

I posted to try and further matts thread with a bit more meat on the bones as to how others have conducted this training and there success rates.

All posts are welcome.

[OutHawkn]

Matthew brilliantly explains the other advantages of a variable schedule of reinforcement in his thread. If it's not for you, and you haven't tried it and don't intend to, then why answer questions about this topic I wonder.


I have been doing this for just at 50 years now, and believe me when I say that there is nothing being done now that I have not personally given a shot. . A fit hawk is nice, but they can be fit quickly and simply by flying them regularly at game without playing all these little food games with them. If you will just back up and look at the entire forum you will see that there are a huge number of individuals that are having difficulties with their birds, and in most all cases it has to do with the way they are feeding them. I would much rather see my hawks become fit gradually as they fly and catch game, or miss it if you will, than to deal with some of the nasty habits that crop up from playing food games with them.
When a person asks for comments or opinions I assume that this is exactly what he wants. If he had made a profound statement I would not have anything to say about it. But that is my educated opinion on the subject, like it or not.

Jack

Jack I would have agreed with your post entirely,,until "Some of it I might have pioneered". If you'd just stop trying to promote yourself as the greatest of all falconers past ,present or future, a lot more people might be willing to give your advice some weight. But nothing is worse than a legend, when that legend is all your own mind..............:lol:

A lot of people on here have as much or more experience than you. But you dont read about them promoting themselves.......

[Vonkie]

I use the variable reward system on my one year old Harris tiercel.
Trained it with wistle first, but me experience so far is that the bird seems to be more keen to get back on the fist using the variable reward system, even on a higher weight !

Jan

[Sean D]

I cant see a reason not to use it, I use it all the time, infact it was Mathews original thread that got me started on it.

[EdenJohnny]

Jack I would have agreed with your post entirely,,until "Some of it I might have pioneered". If you'd just stop trying to promote yourself as the greatest of all falconers past ,present or future, a lot more people might be willing to give your advice some weight. But nothing is worse than a legend, when that legend is all your own mind..............:lol:

A lot of people on here have as much or more experience than you. But you dont read about them promoting themselves.......

But that is exactly what you do Dumbo, I read your other posts,