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  #41  
Old 18-07-2010, 07:55 PM
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Yann Brahic
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

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Originally Posted by CuCulaine View Post
Yewa I was were you ?
couldn't make it. busy rearing a tiercel gos I got from them this spring My 1st gos AND 1st attempt to imprint something.... quite a roller-coaster!

Absolute great people.

Do you hawk with Faris or Goran by any chance?
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  #42  
Old 18-07-2010, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Guys my simple 2cents on this issue is as follows:
Its just short of a miracle, I'd love to fly this bird, if I could but the person flying this bird I can assure you is one of the best game hawkers I know, so no issue of handling etc. The bird will be in excellant hands this fall, but I think we will need 3-4 yrs before we really know its capabilities. I know the breeders very well can can assure you that the almighty dollar wasnt even in their thoughts when they made this hybrid.

In Ontario we have hare (European released in the 50's and hybrids between them and white tailed jacks that were left) yes, intentional hybrid jacks. Early in the season Harris hawks, Redtails, Ferruginous and Golds can take them consistantly, while mid season to late season they cant. The female Golds can, heard of a male Gold that was stunned by a Jack, thought it was dead. Great Horned Owls might take them not sure but after this its dogs, Fox's and Cyotes.

We have Geese, Canada's & Snows, Wild Turkies, various birds as well, as for hunting white tailed deer bring a Harpy. The terrain is such, that with game issues and with the tempature range we have nothing out side of Golds that will (though very rare) can consistantly take this game.

In Ontario the paper nightmare to hunt a full Gold is mind staggering, then to locating suffcient game is another issue, lets not talk about wild life protection groups, Humane societies or local exoctic animal bylaws. God help us here if the a Goldie hits someones dog, horse or other, the pit bull terrier issues again. While hybrids will avoid alot of this as they are man made.

Funny how people think of hybrids, back an eon ago if people felt this way then there would be no breeds of dogs, cats, horses, cows etc, they were selectivily bred & hybridized for traits that humans found usefull, that we are using today.

These animals have not exterminated any pure species in the wild that I am aware of. Remember too that natural hybridization in the wild usually creates a more successfull one in the environment, that with a changing enviornment the natural species cant sustain itself, everything in nature changes continually, trial & error, adapt or be replaced, die out.

According to our game department here, a wild native species will forever remain a wild species no matter how many generations have been bred in captivity, there are no domestic raptors. If these people ruled an eon ago we would never have had any domestic animals. While the same ageny refuses to acknowledge any impact on native species due to ferral cats for fear of public out cry, if a negative solution was initiated, while its legal to shoot dogs found in the wilds.

This hybrid in eastern Canada could fill a niche that isnt filled here now, I'll go out on the limb and say its the hawk of the future.

Last edited by CuCulaine; 18-07-2010 at 08:46 PM. Reason: tidy up
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  #43  
Old 18-07-2010, 08:33 PM
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Richard
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

What about ferugie in Goldie? now that might produce a corker!
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  #44  
Old 18-07-2010, 08:50 PM
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CuCulaine CuCulaine is offline
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabadswompe View Post
couldn't make it. busy rearing a tiercel gos I got from them this spring My 1st gos AND 1st attempt to imprint something.... quite a roller-coaster!

Absolute great people.

Do you hawk with Faris or Goran by any chance?
No sorry I dont know them, yer Gos sounds kewl wish ya the best , (wink) Harris are better though

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacker View Post
What about ferugie in Goldie? now that might produce a corker!

That sounds great too, be interested in that as well. The Harris/Ferug hydrid I know of isnt very good here in the east, would do great out west I was told.
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  #45  
Old 18-07-2010, 10:47 PM
Goshawk007 Goshawk007 is offline
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Good day all. I have read most of the replies to the subject. I think this subject would be alot more interesting if we dealt with more falconry related subject matter as opposed to general ethics, but thats just me. It's not my thread.

With respect to the bird, (for those who can't find the pictures,it is post 258.)

Dealing with a few interesting comments, I think the model done to determine the size/weight of this bird by an American will likely be wrong in this case. I would be very interested to see the data on how you determine the outcome. In your defence, this is likely the largest difference in size between any 2 birds used to create a hybred.

The idea of crossing a Ferruge and a golden eagle has crossed my mind as well. The concern I have is the small feet of the ferruge. I have flown ferruges on European hare and I am well aware of their attributes, but I would be concerned about producing a large bird with small feet which (who knows) leads to perennial foot problems.

We felt with the crossing of the Harris and Golden, that we would definitely get a very intelligent bird. I think most would agree they are 2 of the more intelligent birds we use for falconry. It would definitely be smaller. Right now , I would guess it will fly at 3-4lbs. I know the golden eagle is quite fast and much more agile then most would give it credit it for. I have travelled to see them flown for the last 2 years, so while I don't have hands on experience I have a good feel for their potential.
The harris being smaller and more naturally agile compared to other buteos along with its natural hunting skills and very powerful feet, seemed a natural when considering the cross.
The other issue is where we live in eastern Ontario Canada. Rabbit habitat is fields with shrubs and thickets all over the place. The rabbits are also hiding under just about anything. We often find ourselves in industrial areas where the rabbits go to stay clear of their biggest predators the coyotes and fox.
We have an 80 plus falconry club called the Ontario Hawking Club. lots of falconers flying harris hawks when the weather permits and of course goshawks. Both do well. But we all over coffee at Tim Hortons talk about a bird more compliant then the goshawk for those who can't get out to hunt as often as they wish but could take the weather better then the Harris.
To be honest a properly flown male golden could be flown successfully, but the worry is what about nearby dogs etc. We also have small Jack Russells. You get the picture.

For what its worth, when the hybrid is fledged and ready for falconry, we are switching the male with another one that is old enough to breed now so we can produce pure eagle God willing.

We have another social imprint female that we can try to produce more hybrids from dependant on how the first one turns out falconry wise.

Currently what is interesting is the bird at first started out eagle sized. Now it is growing like a Harris sized bird with both eagle and Harris attributes. The feathers are immature harris coloured. The head as seen in the picture is more eagle like. The legs are very eagle like and feet are heavy like an eagle but with somewhat longer toes like an eagle.

Will the bird all of a sudden start to grow larger or will it fledge in 60 days like a Harris?
Would subsequent young grow differently or take on different attributes?

These are the things we find most interesting.

I trust we can deal with similar stuff like this and keep things in perspective.

Oh and one other observation. It is a fact that every time someone takes a pot shot at what we're trying to, a Canadian is quick to defend. Thanks guys. Good to be Canadian.

Thanks for taking interest.
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  #46  
Old 18-07-2010, 11:09 PM
Altai Altai is offline
David Wayne
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Very interesting; thanks for the information and the best of luck. I hope it turns out to be an excellent hunting bird. I wonder what golden eagle semen into female Harris would produce, would it be smaller than your bird?

I look foreward to more pictures and information. Thanks, Dave.
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  #47  
Old 18-07-2010, 11:36 PM
Chamokane Chamokane is offline
David Gardiner
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Goshawk007,

Thanks for the update. I'm, not Canadian, but I can certainly understand the reasons why you would want to try this hybrid. All the reasons you mentioned make sense to me.

Ken suggested that I cross some Golden Eagle into my Barbary Falcons so I can catch jacks too, but we don't have a jack season here. Also, some of my best friends are purists and/or traditionalists and I don't want to take a chance on offending them.

I think it will be fun if your hybrid turns out to have the Harris coloration. It will make people look twice and scratch their heads. My new Gyr/Anatum looks just like an immature Tundra Peregrine except for her size and longer tail. A non falconer who saw her looked up Gyrs and Peregrines in his book and told me that I had been cheated and had been sold a pure Peregrine. I guess if I had been sold a 48 oz Tundra, I wouldn't feel too cheated.

I'll look forward to hearing how your bird turns out.
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  #48  
Old 18-07-2010, 11:39 PM
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CuCulaine CuCulaine is offline
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Dave

That is my dream bird, a Gold seamen into a Harris hopefully would produce the mentality of a Harris with big feet, handle the cold here, around a 5lbs flying weight, with the speed of the parents or faster.

Hopefully the breeders with these birds popin eggs & seamen going to waste will now use them for a purpose.

I'd love to have a bird that doesnt have political, social and legal implications than can take our Hare, Geese & Wild Turkeys consistantly.

In the east here to fly fox & coyotes is suicide for falconry.
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  #49  
Old 19-07-2010, 06:28 AM
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AdeyHawk1970 AdeyHawk1970 is offline
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCulaine View Post
No sorry I dont know them, yer Gos sounds kewl wish ya the best , (wink) Harris are better though




That sounds great too, be interested in that as well. The Harris/Ferug hydrid I know of isnt very good here in the east, would do great out west I was told.
What is the problem with the harris/ferug hybrid when hunting?Is it quarry or habitat relatedI think a redtail(harlans)/goldie would also be an interesting hybrid for you to try
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  #50  
Old 19-07-2010, 02:06 PM
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CuCulaine CuCulaine is offline
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Default Re: Harris X Goldie

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Originally Posted by AdeyHawk1970 View Post
What is the problem with the harris/ferug hybrid when hunting?Is it quarry or habitat relatedI think a redtail(harlans)/goldie would also be an interesting hybrid for you to try
Its the terain as I understand it, it doesnt handle cover or woodlots very good, unlike Harris's and Redtails both of which out performed it on cotton tails and squirrels.
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