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  #21  
Old 08-04-2014, 07:45 AM
TomOlivia TomOlivia is offline
Michael Calvin
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by Bird_Dog View Post
I think there's one important difference between a passage and captive-reared falcon. That is a passage has overcome the risk of starvation and survived independently. All things being equal (eg., fitness) that one psychological difference makes a passage falcon superior. Also I'd point out that passage falcons will wed to the quarry you select. Checking on other birds really hasn't been a problem for my passage peregrine - a least not after she started catching ducks. On gamehawking ducks, a passage peregrine is the best it can get IMO.

-- Scott
Yes I'd agree Scott, passagers and haggards do seem to know that dinner is flying away and when they pull the trigger their aim is good, but I've also flown captive raised birds that had very high strike rates, although admittedly usually only after a full season or two, and that's the only difference I've noticed other than you really have to get your flying weights spot on, especially early days.

On balance it wouldn't bother me a jot if captive raised were all that was ever available, there are many advantages there too....clean page etc, and I think that there are greater differences between good and not so good captive raised birds than the overall difference between captive raised and passagers....if that makes senseMichael.
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  #22  
Old 08-04-2014, 07:51 AM
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Keith Barker Keith Barker is offline
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by CloakDaggerTiercel View Post
Hi Mike,

I'd like to think that kind of method could be effective.
Trying to catch a successful predator (obviously it wouldn't be a passage bird if it wasnt) with a dummy is going to be challenging, but I guess no different to fly fishing in a way. Thats hard enough mind!

Nick
I have lost count of the amount of peregrines that have knocked the dead woodpigeon clean off my Turbo Flapper when decoying pigeons since i bought it, this combined with a set of dho gazzo nets (spelling) would have a passage bird caught in no time i am sure of it.
Keith
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  #23  
Old 08-04-2014, 08:16 AM
TomOlivia TomOlivia is offline
Michael Calvin
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by Keith Barker View Post
I have lost count of the amount of peregrines that have knocked the dead woodpigeon clean off my Turbo Flapper when decoying pigeons since i bought it, this combined with a set of dho gazzo nets (spelling) would have a passage bird caught in no time i am sure of it.
Keith
Correct!
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  #24  
Old 08-04-2014, 08:48 AM
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Alistair McKissock
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by TomOlivia View Post
Yes I'd agree Scott, passagers and haggards do seem to know that dinner is flying away and when they pull the trigger their aim is good, but I've also flown captive raised birds that had very high strike rates, although admittedly usually only after a full season or two, and that's the only difference I've noticed other than you really have to get your flying weights spot on, especially early days.

On balance it wouldn't bother me a jot if captive raised were all that was ever available, there are many advantages there too....clean page etc, and I think that there are greater differences between good and not so good captive raised birds than the overall difference between captive raised and passagers....if that makes senseMichael.
I hear what you're saying Michael and the theory is good.But having flown passagers and haggards in the past and since then captive bred peregrines, I can honestly say that wild caught falcons win hands down in all respects. I have yet to see, and I've seen a few, any eyasses come anywhere near the efficiancy of wild caught birds in footing, cleverness in flying in all conditions, and strangely, in politeness in handling, hooding etc.

I'm not just talking about falcons I have handled and trained myself, but ones that others in the '60's and '70's have flown. The only downside in those days was no telemetry and I often wonder what fantastic flying could have been witnessed if only we could have held on to these marvelous birds for more than a season or two

Regards,

Alistair
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  #25  
Old 08-04-2014, 09:02 AM
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Michael Calvin
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by TiercelMan View Post
I hear what you're saying Michael and the theory is good.But having flown passagers and haggards in the past and since then captive bred peregrines, I can honestly say that wild caught falcons win hands down in all respects. I have yet to see, and I've seen a few, any eyasses come anywhere near the efficiancy of wild caught birds in footing, cleverness in flying in all conditions, and strangely, in politeness in handling, hooding etc.

I'm not just talking about falcons I have handled and trained myself, but ones that others in the '60's and '70's have flown. The only downside in those days was no telemetry and I often wonder what fantastic flying could have been witnessed if only we could have held on to these marvelous birds for more than a season or two

Regards,

Alistair
I bow down to your greater experience of these things Alistair. My own experiences put it all at 50/50 but I concede that of the passagers/haggards that I've flown, and upon which my 'theory' is based, (about 8 or 9 all up), none of them were for protracted periods of time and they had all lost their initial 'wild' fitness by the time I took them in hand so perhaps the advantages of them were somewhat more subtle?
One or two were obviously a bit special (I'd have loved to keep hold of one in particular), two or three were absolutely no different to any captive raised birds I've flown at the same stage of training and another couple were more trouble than they were worth (checky right away). As I was saying.....about the same as you'd expect to find in any cross section of captive raised hawks.
Regards, Michael.
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  #26  
Old 08-04-2014, 01:36 PM
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RamishHawk RamishHawk is offline
Steve Skinner
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Barker View Post
I have lost count of the amount of peregrines that have knocked the dead woodpigeon clean off my Turbo Flapper when decoying pigeons since i bought it, this combined with a set of dho gazzo nets (spelling) would have a passage bird caught in no time i am sure of it.
Keith
Good post Keith it makes sense lets face it the B.T.O & R.S.P.B. have been using mist nets under licence for years to ring & record birds so why can't falconers do the same, under licence of coarse using your Turbo Flapper. I can see me now lol sat in my hide on the farm opposite the gasometer which is a stone's throw away with decoys and Flapper in place, i'll keep dreaming.

[QUOTE=TiercelMan;2074996]I hear what you're saying Michael and the theory is good.But having flown passagers and haggards in the past and since then captive bred peregrines, I can honestly say that wild caught falcons win hands down in all respects. I have yet to see, and I've seen a few, any eyasses come anywhere near the efficiancy of wild caught birds in footing, cleverness in flying in all conditions, and strangely, in politeness in handling, hooding etc.

I'm not just talking about falcons I have handled and trained myself, but ones that others in the '60's and '70's have flown. The only downside in those days was no telemetry and I often wonder what fantastic flying could have been witnessed if only we could have held on to these marvelous birds for more than a season or two

Regards,

There speaks the voice of reason thanks Alistair for that post, passage birds rock, iv listened to older falconers talking about these birds for years, about there flying skills and impeccable manners, its got to be the pinnacle of the sport.

Atb Steve.
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  #27  
Old 08-04-2014, 01:57 PM
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RamishHawk RamishHawk is offline
Steve Skinner
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by TomOlivia View Post
Yes I'd agree Scott, passagers and haggards do seem to know that dinner is flying away and when they pull the trigger their aim is good, but I've also flown captive raised birds that had very high strike rates, although admittedly usually only after a full season or two, and that's the only difference I've noticed other than you really have to get your flying weights spot on, especially early days.

On balance it wouldn't bother me a jot if captive raised were all that was ever available, there are many advantages there too....clean page etc, and I think that there are greater differences between good and not so good captive raised birds than the overall difference between captive raised and passagers....if that makes senseMichael.
Hi Mike i would like to add, that it would bother me if only captive birds were available, because we would not be able to add to the gene pool, i think that's just as important, wouldn't want to many inbred birds.
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  #28  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:29 PM
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Tony James Tony James is offline
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by RamishHawk View Post
Hi Mike i would like to add, that it would bother me if only captive birds were available, because we would not be able to add to the gene pool, i think that's just as important, wouldn't want to many inbred birds.
Out of interest Steve,

what leads you to believe we need to increase the gene pool in the captive peregrine population?

Best wishes,

Tony.
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  #29  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:35 PM
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Sean D Sean D is offline
Sean Donnelly
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by RamishHawk View Post
Hi Mike i would like to add, that it would bother me if only captive birds were available, because we would not be able to add to the gene pool, i think that's just as important, wouldn't want to many inbred birds.
Steve, I often hear mention of the "gene pool" within captive breeding, it seems more important to us then good old mother nature as its been recorded numerous times that wild Peregrines will inbreed as will other wild birds and animals, I would imagine that the captive gene pool will keep us going for a good few years yet.
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  #30  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:57 PM
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TiercelMan TiercelMan is offline
Alistair McKissock
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Default Re: Passage Falcons

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Originally Posted by Sean D View Post
Steve, I often hear mention of the "gene pool" within captive breeding, it seems more important to us then good old mother nature as its been recorded numerous times that wild Peregrines will inbreed as will other wild birds and animals, I would imagine that the captive gene pool will keep us going for a good few years yet.
If we're talking about injecting falcons in to the "gene pool" I think using passage hawks for this is definitely the wrong way to go as they are notoriously difficult to breed from.

Alistair
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