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Old 26-01-2011, 04:39 PM
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Default Theoretical Maximum Speed of a Falcon in a Stoop

Have a look at this link...

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/201/3/403.pdf

Basically it is a theoretical study of the dynamics of flight in falcons supports that falcons could reach speeds in excess of 100m/s = 224mph and also shows how dramatically they can control their speed during a stoop.
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Old 26-01-2011, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

And this link is to an older paper that uses radar measurements of 3 stoops by wild peregrines stooping at quarry that record a maximum speed in a stoop of 38.8m/s = 87mph

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....tb03207.x/pdf

This paper discusses that peregrines deliberately increase drag during a stoop to achieve the speed that they require.

Their observations were of only 3 stoops, so they are only measuring what they observed, not stating a maximum.
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Old 26-01-2011, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

Great stuff, but is this all just theory on paper ? Physics say's niether a helicopter or a bumble bee can fly and we have all seen them do it, so I wonder what can the falcon really do if pushed to the limits ? Some think they may be able to approach 300 mph if the set up is done right. very interesting.
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Old 26-01-2011, 05:26 PM
CloakDaggerTiercel CloakDaggerTiercel is offline
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieT View Post
Have a look at this link...

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/201/3/403.pdf

Basically it is a theoretical study of the dynamics of flight in falcons supports that falcons could reach speeds in excess of 100m/s = 224mph and also shows how dramatically they can control their speed during a stoop.
Forget the theory, a peregrine has been reliably clocked at 242 mph. This was documented in the National Geographic programme, can't remember the name of it, but Brian Sullivan bred the female anatum and Ken Franklin was doing the jumping out of an aeroplane and skydiving thing with the imprint following him down.
The consensus was that there could be a bit more speed left in the tank too.
Nick
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Old 26-01-2011, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

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Originally Posted by CloakDaggerTiercel View Post
Forget the theory, a peregrine has been reliably clocked at 242 mph. This was documented in the National Geographic programme, can't remember the name of it, but Brian Sullivan bred the female anatum and Ken Franklin was doing the jumping out of an aeroplane and skydiving thing with the imprint following him down.
The consensus was that there could be a bit more speed left in the tank too.
Nick
Hi Nick,

I've always been intrigued by that footage. Firstly I guess it does Prove Peregrines can reach 200mph +, but they were so high the Peregrine has height above the ground to do it. Having spent 100's of hours watching wild Peregrines I would say that the majority of their stoops are from below 1500ft, so therefore certainly don't reach 200mph, and at the point of impact they are probably doing around 50mph, otherwise both birds would be dead !!

Regards

Rob
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" Did you get a good look at her?? Because, that's probably the last you'll see of her !!" Ed Pitcher. Utah Sky Trials 2010 :-)
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Old 26-01-2011, 06:15 PM
Gyr-SakerFalcon Gyr-SakerFalcon is offline
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop


Nat geo footage for you.
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Old 26-01-2011, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

I agree Rob.

Whilst the chap sky diving with his falcon at 242mph was fascinating - it wasn't really a true reflection of what wild peregrines get up to.

A similar analogy would be looking at Usain Bolt running the 100 in 9.58 seconds and using that evidence to state that humans can run the 100 in 9.58 seconds. Whilst saying that wouldn't be a lie - it doesn't tell the whole picture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robam View Post
Hi Nick,

I've always been intrigued by that footage. Firstly I guess it does Prove Peregrines can reach 200mph +, but they were so high the Peregrine has height above the ground to do it. Having spent 100's of hours watching wild Peregrines I would say that the majority of their stoops are from below 1500ft, so therefore certainly don't reach 200mph, and at the point of impact they are probably doing around 50mph, otherwise both birds would be dead !!

Regards

Rob
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Old 26-01-2011, 07:13 PM
CloakDaggerTiercel CloakDaggerTiercel is offline
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robam View Post
Hi Nick,

I've always been intrigued by that footage. Firstly I guess it does Prove Peregrines can reach 200mph +, but they were so high the Peregrine has height above the ground to do it. Having spent 100's of hours watching wild Peregrines I would say that the majority of their stoops are from below 1500ft, so therefore certainly don't reach 200mph, and at the point of impact they are probably doing around 50mph, otherwise both birds would be dead !!

Regards

Rob
Good points Rob but the thread posed the question of what speeds are feasible theoretically and in this case in reality.
Yes these kinds of speeds would be dangerous generally to the falcons feet and most wild falcons Ive seen bleed off alot of speed to bind, especially to pigeons.
Ive seen a fair few wild peregrines on the hunt too and the ones ive seen also haven't made the huge pitches needed to buildup the big speeds. Its the ones you can't see that would.
Thermalling peregrines will easily match what is on that film.
Ive seen the throwups from these kinds of stoops from wild peregrines, hundreds of feet in the air, the noise alone is incredible. It was only because of the noise that I knew there was a peregrine nearby.
They have the ability to stoop far faster than trained peregrines. Like flying, its a skill they can practice far more.
242 mph will be reached out there with regularity I would say.
Nick
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Old 26-01-2011, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

I think Nick raises an important point. Humans are far more likely to observe a wild falcon hunting at lower altitudes and performing stoops at lower speeds. Peregrines will definitely hunt from great height where very long high speed stoops creates the effect of the unseen predator appearing out of blue at birds that never see it coming, but how to you ever get to witness it in the wild?

The stories told by Ed Pitcher in his book leads me to believe that some falconers over in the US may have witnessed flights very much like this from their own trained passage and eyass falcons.

If peregrines have the technical ability to go speeds way in excess of 200mph, the fact that they don't do it all the time is then a matter of the falcon controlling its speed of descent to meet its needs at the time.
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Old 26-01-2011, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Theoretical maximum speed of a falcon in a stoop

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakDaggerTiercel View Post
Forget the theory, a peregrine has been reliably clocked at 242 mph. This was documented in the National Geographic programme, can't remember the name of it, but Brian Sullivan bred the female anatum and Ken Franklin was doing the jumping out of an aeroplane and skydiving thing with the imprint following him down.
The consensus was that there could be a bit more speed left in the tank too.
Nick
I saw this footage before Ken sold it to Nat Geo. He did a lecture at a Cailifornia Hawking Club meet a few years back and we got to see it there, he was the one that said he thought they might be able to break 300 mph. He said he was going to try and prove it. The presentation was incredible and he has some great stories that go along with it as well. Ken is a pretty cool guy. Nat. Geo calls the segment "Terminal velocity" I believe.
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